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Tuesday
May222007

Stack and Tilt Follow Up, Vol. 1

The original post on Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer's teaching method received all sorts of intriguing comments, including someone signing under Andy's name (and sounding like him!).

After fiddling with the concept on the range a bit Sunday, I have to say I love backswing concept because I've never believed the traditional weight shift was a natural move (nor very easy on the right knee). But as for the downswing, I'm still not clear on what thought or sensation you want to trigger. So I have the same question as reader Mike Uysal, who wrote that Plumber and Bennett...

...advocates upward thrust of the buttock muscles while the arms are swinging down. MY QUESTION IS: As the body stands up through the soda can being crushed with the left leg (right hand player) - are the arms swinging down or is the trunk rotating left and tilting with arms close to the rib cage?

In other words, is it an arm swing or trunk rotation?

Anyone out there understand the question he/we are asking and have a thought? Because Lord knows, we all need more swing thoughts! 

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Reader Comments (25)

The arms come down close to the body and the trunk follows. At this point you have to really work (I do) to thrust your belt up and out to follow.
I have been working on this swing this year and can tell you that when you do make solid contact you really compress the ball and the sound is very clear.
05.23.2007 | Unregistered CommenterMarty Hackel
Uh Marty, what if I'm Rory Sabbatini wearing a 5 pound Superman belt buckle? :)

Thanks for the tip and for posting.
Geoff
05.23.2007 | Registered CommenterGeoff
geoff,
i have been working on this for 1 1/2 years with a longtime pupil of andy's who plays the mini tour and got to spend a couple hours with andy once before.

my understanding is that when you crunch the coke can and then spring up, rotation will occur. i'm no expert but i guess the momentum of this left move carrys you around as long as you allow the left leg to straighten. the straightening of the left leg allows the hips to continue turning. keep the pressure in your armpits to keep the arms on the body. keep the handle pushing forward ahead of the clubhead to prevent the clubhead from rolling and to prevent the clubhead from being thrown outside.

bottom line, i think you should have some good results thinking crush the coke can and keep the arms on the body. (try hitting balls with a tee under each armpit)
05.24.2007 | Unregistered Commenterrion moore
Geoff,
Do me a favor look up Aaron Baddeley's ball striking stats. Unless you are as a good a putter as he is you have no chance. Same with Mac O'Grady he had some of the worse ball striking stats when he played as well. I don't know who else works with these guys but check their stats too. I think Weir just started working with them.
05.24.2007 | Unregistered CommenterB
GIR stats from pgatour.com for stack and tilt guys

3. armour III
7. john cook
25. mackenzie
107. axley
145. d wilson
151. weir
164. wi
177. baddeley
183. faxon (just started with them, says they are the best he's ever worked with, and he's worked with them all...never been able to hit it)
05.25.2007 | Unregistered CommenterJ
I've hit some 9 and 7 irons so far with this method and find the build up of torque on the backswing is substantial. I just have to kind of release it from the top and CRACK! The ball jumps off the face high and a bit further than previously. The flight trajectories are beautiful but I have to work with it more to adjust landing patterns, kind of disbursed right now.Feels very powerful. I've found really titling my left shoulder down on starting the backswing is a good focus point. The upper body rebounds from the backswing and pulls the arms through with lots of power and speed! Have to work on lots more. Spine feels a bit twisted after a few shots so I may have to slow down a bit. but love the feeling so far.
06.8.2007 | Unregistered Commenterbill b
The shorter the backswing feels in this swing the better. When you get to the top of your backswing, all you need to do is rotate your body to the left. The arms will be along for the ride. Ive been stack and tilting for a couple of weeks now, and i have never hit the ball better. I own and operate a golf school out of kingston, jamaica. Ive worked with a few of my students on this move, and afte just a few sessions they have never hit the ball better. Im hitting it soo well, i may need to shut down my operation for a while nad hit the mini tours again.
06.10.2007 | Unregistered Commenterjason
I am intrigued by this swing theory. Nonetheless, can anyone explain the poor G.I.R. stats these tour players who utilize this method own?
06.17.2007 | Unregistered Commentersteele
I don't know about those PGA guys , but my GIR"s are way up. Thus my scores in the 3 weeks I have been at it have gone from a 6 hdcp to a 2. Hitting more greens have given me way more birdie opportunities. For older guys with less flexibility I think this is a must. It has made me a golfer again and I love it. Exploding that left leg and the thrust of the hips allows you to hit against a firm left side like the traditional swing. But, the weight always being forward causes you to become a ball striker that no one would have ever called me before. Even if you miss a couple they go toward your target and you minimize trouble shots or penalty shots.
06.21.2007 | Unregistered CommenterAndy
I been using for three weeks, great Irons and easy to do. Really struggle with drives being blocked to the right. So drive are great and about 50% are blocks. I have read tee the ball lower, etc. Nothing seems to help. Where is ball position to be on driver?

I love stack and tilt, have 14 handicap last three round were 79, 78 and 76. Now if I could solve the block with driver?
06.21.2007 | Unregistered CommenterJwood
Jwood - Tee the ball up a little above regular. Move it up in the stance to off of your left toe. This will keep you from bunching up and allow you explode with the left leg and hips. No more right blocks.
06.21.2007 | Unregistered CommenterAndy
I've been trying stack and tilt on the range for a couple of weeks. Love it. My distance has gone way up, as has my accuracy. And the crispness of the ball strike is amazing. Sounds different too. Once in a blue moon I used to strike it crisply and then wonder what I did right and why I couldn'd do it all the time. Now with stack and tilt, it's pretty normal. Aside from tilt to the left to start the backswing (right handed player), the only other swing thought I have is to feel as if the first move from the top of the backswing is to drive my left knee down on top of the ball. The leg quickly recoils and straightens, my body springs up while my arms simply (and quickly) drop into the hitting zone, all seemingly at the same time. Very powerful. Can't wait to try it on the course.
06.22.2007 | Unregistered CommenterWayne
I have been using stack and tilt for a couple of months and love it. Very crisp ball striking and hitting alot more greens.
I am still fading the ball on a fairly consistant basis. What exactly are the arm positions supposed to be? I think I need to keep them closer to my body, but am not sure?
Any ideas?
06.27.2007 | Unregistered CommenterJim Wescott
I've been using the swing about a month - starting working on it right after the article appeared in GD. Results for me have been fantastic. Don't have the consistency I'd like yet but then I wasn't consistent with my old swing. With a 13 handicap I usually break 80 maybe 2 or 3 times a season. Have done so 3 times in the last 3 weeks with stack & tilt! Would love to find an instructor in the Denver area.
06.27.2007 | Unregistered CommenterTom Burgett
Have tried S&T for a few weeks and like the simplicity, find short irons and any shot off a tee works well, but tend to hit long irons thin. I am certain this is because the 'crushing a coke can' action causes me to raise up a little. Any thoughts or solutions?
Mike
06.29.2007 | Unregistered CommenterMike
I had one of the best rounds of my life the first time I tried it, but soon started to block drives right as well. My problem was I was up on my right toes during the downswing with longer clubs. I need to feel both feet on the ground till after impact to hit the ball straight...having said that when it works, it really works. Anyone know who might be teaching this method in Western PA?
07.13.2007 | Unregistered CommenterMike K
just started using stack and tilt this week, found the swing to be great. cured my slice. however found as the day went on that i was pulling my driver and long irons, any advise would be great.
07.28.2007 | Unregistered Commenterpeter m
A critical part of the S&T is the 40 degree angle you need to be at in your backswing when your club is level and you are fully extended at that point just finish your backswing. You will quit hitting blocks. Set up three clubs. #1 for your stance, #2 at a 90 degree angle with #1. Then eyeball #3 in the angle created to 45 degrees. Once you feel it's close to 45 move it down 5 degrees so it's about 40 degrees from your stance club. Now remove club #2. You should have the #3 clubs grip end touching your #1 club at 40 degrees. Every practice swing make sure you are exactly on that angle when your club is level. It will feel to far inside at first. your arms are then real close to your body. At the top just drop your elbow close, the momentum of stepping on the can and lifting and arching your back will finish your swing.

I also had trouble with thin hits. I found out my head has to stay in the center, but my weight needed to be to the left. If the head is centered but moves just a little bit forward on the downswing your center will shift and because you already are on your left side. you are then to far forward causing the thin hit. Look at the picture it looks like he is leaning back but he has just moved his midsection more forward, not his head. Step on the can but keep your head centered. When you practice try not to move any grass in back of your ball. After a few balls you will notice you are placing your ball in about the same spot but you have a 1" hole dig in the front. Amazing
07.29.2007 | Unregistered Commenterstan H
Stack and tilt works fine with me on flat lies but seems inpossible to execute effectively on uneven lies, especially uphill. On uphill lie, weight is automatically on the rear foot, to put on left foot i have to adjust my stance making it far from parallel to the ground causing all sorts of problems.... Anyone here have tips on how to make the proper adjustments
I like most of you started playing around with S&T after reading about it in GD. Loved if from the start. Just shot my age and won the Midwest Senior Amateur. I also qualified for the 2007 USGA Senior Amateur. Not 100% knowledgeable of the mechanics but I was a Curtis Strange swinger. Moving off the ball and coming back at impact. This allows me to stay over the ball and hit crisper shots. I am a little inconsistant still and that costs me when playing competitive golf. Stepping on a can while thrusting my hips up and forward is a little complicated so I try and just turn my hips back to the left ( for right handed players) from the top. Seems to work. I need help with the driver. Sometimes it's great and sometimes I am left and next time right. Any suggestions?
09.7.2007 | Unregistered Commentermills
The method above about how to place clubs on the ground as an aid is excellent. I would add one more important detail. One must decide how to get the club back on the 40 degree angle. For me, I do it by turning my upper body on my spine while my left shoulder moves down and under my chin. This all moves as one piece. No rotation of the wrists. rotation of the face happens with rotation of the body. This way the face is always the same in relation to a point in the center of your chest on the backswing. this promotes a consistent backswing and creates the same platform from which to start the forward swing with the crushing of the can with your forward leg coupled with your preferred method of hip and upper-torso rotation back into the golf ball.

Excellent results for me. I play to a 2 handicap, and have starting shooting more rounds under par than over par as a result of better control of trajectory and distance on approach shots.

The move back is also pertinent if one wants to be consistent with the driver. I also suggest teeing the driver up slightly more forward with this swing to allow time to shallow out a bit more at the bottom. It also allows more room for the rotation of the forward swing to get back on the target line before moving back to the inside across the body while the upperarms stay close to the body on the follow through.
09.11.2007 | Unregistered CommenterJohn Perron
I've been using this method for nearly 10 years. I was told of this by an old pro who played the tour at the same time as Sam Snead. He observed Snead's move at the start of his backswing that appeared to move his head slightly toward the target on the back swing and slightly away from the target in the downswing. He attributed it to the old physics axion "for every force action there is an equal and opposite reaction"
The turn and motion of the lower body is much easier when the upper body is going slightly in the opposite direction. No need to worry about plane as that will be determined by your posture when setting up. Just as you swing back move your head slightly forward and your plane will happen automatically. I initiate the down swing by driving my right heel upward and the swing just happens. Hope that might work for you.
11.2.2007 | Unregistered Commenterjack
In CO a pro named Denver haddix
11.8.2007 | Unregistered CommenterDD
Starting playing after reading article. Iron play improved beyond conception. Driver and fairway woods uphill lies most.Even using for sand shots. The driver is inconsistent in length which is frustrating.I think the secret is keeping the arms as close to the body as possible on back and through swing.

This method should be taught to all new golfers and women would benefit in particular as most keep their weight on their front foot.

No teachers in England I can find.

01.14.2008 | Unregistered CommenterBarry Bates
I find stack and tilt will cause a reverse pivot and uphill and downhill lies accentuate this bad tendency

(From http://www.ebayoyo.com)
09.11.2008 | Unregistered Commenterebayoyo

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