Pelz: "The USGA has taken away 50 percent of the spin from the amateurs."

Brian Wacker files a Q&A with Dave Pelz and the short game guru isn't too happy with the groove rule change. While I appreciate his sentiment about doing something other than the ball, I'm sensing this is a bit of an overstatement.

And my pet peeve is the USGA changed the grooves rule this year and said it wouldn't affect the amateurs because they don't hit many greens in regulation. Well it turns out after watching the pros [this year] that it hardly affected the pros at all because they're good enough to play around it. The USGA took good data and misinterpreted that data. The amateurs are the ones who hit greens with wedges; they don't hit greens with 4-irons. The first question I always get asked at clinics is how can I get more spin on my wedges? Mine don't stop like pros do. The USGA has taken away 50 percent of the spin from the amateurs. It was a terrible decision, the worst decision the USGA has ever made. Change the ball or change the driver. Don't change the wedges for amateurs.

Comments

[themerk]

WOW that is the first time I have ever agreed wih anything Pelz had to say. Great statement; obviously amateurs play a somewhat different game on completely different courses than the PGA Tour etc but the idea that the grooves were the culprit here is ridiculous. The ball "rollback" was the fix however the USGA has the worst testing procedures and so they would have had to admit fault to roll the ball back.

[Kevin]

Dr. Pelz, why don't you simply tell these amateurs that they can use the old grooves? Or is it simply a better story to say that they've lost a (supposed) 50 percent of spin? That figure, I imagine, is as accurate as asking an amateur how far they carry a driver shot.

[carnaptious and camsteerie]

Exactly Kevin.

He's just moaning because his job has been made more difficult. What a drama queen.

[thusgone]

if you go back and read what pelz has been saying for years before the groove rule, you'll find that amateurs have been asking that same question since time immemorial. this is not to say the new grooves have taken some spin away from amateurs, but that pelz -- the data guy -- has failed to provide any quantifiable data in support.

[Jon Moore]

Would his position be different if he didn't endorse BJ Ortiz wedges?

[rob]

Dave Pelz, meet Dave Tutleman -

"Grooves do nothing for spin if there is clean, dry contact between the clubhead and the ball. Yes, I know this is counterintuitive; but it's true. So what about all the buzz you hear about the spin produced by square grooves?"

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swing2.php?ref=

[bsoudi]

Rob,

Nice selective quote. Read the rest in Tutleman:

"Suppose there's some nice juicy grass between the clubface and the ball. It may provide enough lubrication to allow the ball to "hydroplane" on a smooth clubface. Like the tread on a tire, the grooves provide somewhere for the lubricant to be channeled away and allow steel to be in intimate contact with the ball.

"For the same width and depth, the square grooves have twice the volume; it's simple geometry. So you can channel away more lubricant with square grooves than with V-grooves. You may still lose some spin, but you lose less with square grooves."

Assuming amateurs hit more shots into greens from the rough than the fairway, the reduced spin from the goove rule effects (in this case, detrimentally) amateurs more than the pros.

I don't get the vitriol in this thread: Are you Pelz-haters, new groove-rule lovers, or just cranky?

Me? A rule that makes an already hard game harder for amateurs and not harder for the pros (see the PGA Tour data) is stupid. Yes, you can use old wedges. But some people actually will need to buy new ones in the next 100 years. And they will make the game harder for real golfers (not pros).

[thusgone]

i think someone needs to look up the definition of vitriol. :said in a calm and conversational tone of voice:

[PABOY]

Yes what difference does this make for me a mid-high single digit who could never spin a ball except out of a wet bunker? I am Thankful the USGA has proven they have the ability to regulate the game, hopefully this groove change was a trojan horse.

[Troglodyte]

Has the groove rule made any meaningful difference to skilled professionals? No,. Will it hinder less skilled players? Not measurably or meaningfully. Was the groove rule necessary? Absolutely not.

[Ky Laffoon's Ghost]

I think that Pelz has been a force for good in the game. Whatever you think of the precision he wants to place on the golf swing from 100 yards in, following his "rules" will allow you to hit the ball 85 instead of 100 yards when you need to. As for the grooves, few *average* golfers hit the ball hard enough or use a ball that is soft enough on the surface for the grooves on a wedge to make that much difference. Me, I'm just glad that the grooves on my illegal-in-2014 wedges have worn down enough so that I can take a solid swipe at a $4 golf ball (yeah, a waste) and not slice it up.

[bsoudi]

Thusgone: from dictionary.com:
Vitriol:

3. something highly caustic or severe in effect, as criticism.

Paboy, Ky, it's not so much whether it "spins" when it hits the green, zipping every which way. It's about distance and trajectory. When hit with decent speed, the more clubface that touches the ball, the higher (and shorter) the shot can fly. Bigger grooves reduce the "flyer" effect.

I suppose they don't help 20+ guys. But high single digits, probably.

[digsouth]

Pelz is fine in what he does.

I don't think enough people realize he wants players to use his stats to PRACTICE, to then go out and PLAY golf, without thought to all the tech crap.

Just like chess. you don't need to know how the knight can move. you make the play.


FWIW, Pelz putt at WS for the golf Channel was STILL one of the best moments on BS golf TV.


Happy TG everyone.

[Chene]

The USGA can solve this issue by eliminating the restriction on producing non-CC wedges and removing the 2024 sunset clause on usage by amateurs.

For their national tournaments, fine, require the smaller grooves. For the rest of us, who cares. The vast majority of don't follow the USGA rules to the letter, and there are already differences that are allowed, like using range finders in club tournaments and handicap rounds.

[cangolfer]

I totally agree with Pelz. The pros like the new rule as it has shown to help them score lower by reducing spin. So the USGA failed in it's attempts to make the game harder for the Pros. They succeeded in making the game harder for amateurs. The question is : why is making the game harder for the masses a good thing? I can't understand why this rule even applies to amateurs? It was designed to limit pros not amateurs. I agree with Pelz, It is the worst decision by the USGA ever. How will it be for golf manufacturers who want to sell wedges and many won't want to buy the new junk. I know I will never buy a post 2010 wedge. Hurts the golf companies too who need all the revenue they can get during lean recession years. The USGA are a bunch of fools!

[Scotty O'Toole]

There'll always be plenty of spin, Daaave!

[Garland]

I am an average golfer with an average handicap. Yesterday when I played, I started with a golf ball I had found. Along the way I found three balls, and lost three balls. I don't know the spin characteristics on any of them. What's your data on that Dave? I doubt the grooves on my wedges made one iota difference in my game. As a matter of fact, I saw your program on golf channel that showed players like me can't get the ball near enough to the hole to one putt from near the green. So why should I buy a ball that spins, or wedges that spin, it's all a crap shot with we amateurs that you presume to defend.

[Matt]

Worst decision that the USGA ever made was their non-decision. Clubhead size should never have been allowed over 300cc , Max COR on .78 should have been the limit and ball distances should have been regulated.

[Garland]

Can't believe no on picked up on his 4 iron comment. Doesn't he understand that the modern ball does not spin well off the 4 iron? I don't care if it is a pro or a duffer, 4 iron spin is not an issue. Makes you wonder if he knows what he is talking about.