Video: (1) Pebble Beach Vs. (2) Riviera

The Brothers Morrissett introduced me to the joys of using match play to settle the most vital debate of all: "which course is better." By no means a perfect argument-settler, match playing holes somehow ends up working itself out over 18 holes.

In another installment of the UnShackeled series, I match up the two best designs on the PGA Tour and two of my favorite courses on the planet (even if both have seen betters days architecturally, something that factors into this match).

So here goes, the first nine of top seed Pebble Beach taking on Riviera. The back nine and match victor will be resolved tomorrow.

Comments

[LA John]

Nice give and take on these two icons. I think that you're being a bit hard on the 8th at Riviera, but it's definitely not going to displace Pebble's run of 7-8-9.

[The Big K]

Geoff - Keep it up, interesting and fun approach to appreciating golf architecture. It still seems a little windy wherever you are recording, though...

[Nancy]

Very clever and blue is the color for the twin Shacks.

[Mike Seidl]

Geoff -

I love the concept of what you're doing. But for me, all of your rocking back and forth is REALLY distracting. I would suggest taking your hands out of your pockets and holding some object that means something to you (like a golf club perhaps, like Bob Hope used to do) and really working on some kind of movement that doesn't involve rocking.

But keep them coming ...

[Mike T.]

Nice borrow, Geoff. I've never played the courses, but have seen enough of them on television to appreciate the comparison. Looking forward to the back nine.

[GeoffreyC]

I always thought that format of match play comparison keeping the order of the holes was a simpleton method of comparison.

You can have a separate category for flow and routing but isn't it more realistic to compare par 3's, short 4's , long 4's and par 5's.? How do you realistically compare Riv 6 to Pebble 6? Pebble 4 to Riv 4? Even Pebble 10 to Riv 10? Papaya to Orange?

[3foot1]

There are plenty of ways to make the comparison, but this is the funnest. Dramamine, Shack?

[KLG]

Excellent!

[GeoffreyC]

Fun - yes

Valid comparison - to each his own

So, lets get to #18. I predict a PC half of the holes. Instead, perhaps compare Pebble 9 (long 4) to Riv 18 (long 4) and you can get into some valid critiques. Is the position in the routing important and does that help Riv 18. Do the elements and shear thrill of the two shots on Pebble 9 carry the day? Does Pebble have a long par 3 to match Riv #4? (no - not until 17 redoes the green and uses the back Nicklaus 1 iron tee). And we can go on.

[Karl]

For a second, I thought that was you and your husband having a spat. Great segment BTW. Keep up the good work.

[The O]

Neat idea. Is it the best way to decide a "better" course? Who knows. But, it would be fun to do that over a few beers even with comparing local dog tracks when deciding "Who's course do we play this weekend?"

[Smitty]

I know the swaying must be a habit for you and your fellow Californians, especially since it allows you to remain standing during all those earthquakes there . . .

[George Blunt]

Those overhead shots really let the cart paths frame the holes quite nicely. Such a pleasure to see.

Geoff, love the format. Have fun with it. The LPGA is at Royal Melbourne this week - how about a skins game between all 3?

George

[Dave]

Geoff, might not agree with you on everything, but one thing is for sure: you are a well-dressed dude.

Thanks for your efforts on the blog and all of the great content.

[Evan Pur]

Great job Geoff...Can't wait to hear about the back nine. Enjoy the week at RCC.

[GolfBoy]

Geoff,

Nicely done. Question.. what would you think about a Coore Crenshaw renovation at Pebble beach to bring it back to what the pictures were like back in the 1920s and 1930s. That would be beautiful and a very interesting turn to what has become a perfectly green and fake looking/boring course.

[ol Harv]

"what would you think about a Coore Crenshaw renovation at Pebble beach to bring it back to what the pictures were like back in the 1920s and 1930s. "

Golfboy, if Donald Trump reads your suggestion he might have a stroke. He was not a fan of the C&C "back to the future" renovation at Pinehurst.

" I match up the two best designs on the PGA Tour"
Better than PGA National and "The Bear Trap"?... And I thought "The Donald" told us TN-Doral was the best design on Tour now?

[Mark]

The new 5th at peble is nice but it makes you walk 225 to the next tee into the people playing it wonder what 6 would have been if 5 was built on the ocean from the start

[Blue Canyon]

Great job Geoff.
Loved the overheads and dialog.

So true that 5th green changes was huge mistake at Riviera - they certainly lost ground and Thomas/Bell design points.

[Nubi]

I have been gouged at both places, and I felt less ripped off at Pebble, and that was partly by the presence of ocean views, which makes anything nearby more expensive than otherwise. Putting aside the issue of money, then I think that I prefer Riviera. If I were to play day in and day out, I would play Riviera. You can concentrate more on golf at Riviera. As opposed to being on just about any hole after 4th hole along the ocean is just distracting.

[P-Dog]

If I may ask, who did the redo of #5 green at Riv?

[melnik]

Very fun concept, Geoff. The video might rekindle the blue jean controversy though...

One thing the fly-overs made clear... too many cart paths. Pebble looks to have enough ashpalt for a mall parking lot.

[Greg V]

Great stuff, Geoff. Keep it up.

It is a shame that we aren't playing with persimmon and steel, or hickory even, to play these great courses with the equipment that was in play when they were designed.

[Matt]

I don't necessarily agree with all of this. No. 2 at Pebble is a great hole that's been minimized by modern distances as well as the falling of that tree that complicated the left side of the approach. How exactly has the kikuyu ruined no. 4 at Riv? Made it tougher to bounce in a shot off the right fairway side of the hole and essentially forced a bunker carry? And how is the 7th at Riv a disaster? It's scary off the tee because either side can bounce into the left(sand) or right(long grass/trees). Are you referring to the chipping area falloff to the left of the green? I guess if you don't like the one at 5 you won't like that one either. This cries out for more in-depth analysis.

[HughWilson9]

Nicely done. Love it. Thanks for the clever and fun comparison. Looking forward to more, I really appreciate your take on golf course architecture. (The cart paths are a disgrace to such classic old school courses though. I wish more re do's would get rid of the abominations). You have to love courses with small well bunkered greens such as these!

[Croz]

Agree with Matt, No 7. at Riv ate my lunch when I played it. I don't have many problems with it.

No. 8, Geoff is spot-on. Whoever redesigned that hole did a poor job. It doesn't look good (aesthetically) and I was told it looks nothing like how G. Thomas designed it. It was also an easy hole to play, I thought. I just launched a drive way left and had an easy approach. The split fairway didn't make it much of dilemma.

[Geoff]

Thanks to all for the kind comments and feedback!

Golfboy,
A 1929 redo of Pebble should happen. The big question is, how do they keep all of that dunes sand from blowing away. The super there dreams about it all the time and no doubt has his views, but the problem at Pebble is ultimately whether the local economy and ownership can stomach the time needed to close the course. It's a huge economic blow not just to the Lodge but to the community.

P-Dog,
The 5th green was done internally as I understand it. A real shame. I remember watching Ben Crenshaw agonizing over keeping the contours and slopes in the greens redo. It was a gem and now it's just totally out of character and probably not fixable without a total rebuild.

Matt,
My issues with 7 involve the scale of the bunker and the forcing of good players to hit an iron or hybrid. In Thomas's original, there was incentive to take a risk and hit driver. Now there is really only one shot as the fairway was turned into a berm after the 1938 flood. And the left bunker is simply outrageous in size, scale, looks. The chipping area around the green is not great either, as were attempts to enlarge the putting surface. Most people won't notice this stuff or care, but compared to what was in the old photos it's just not as good.

[HughWilson9]

Geoff, Will you be doing this every two weeks following the tour stops? Looking forward to the next match.

[mark]

Would a 1929 redo speed up play at Pebble? I know many say if I pay my $500 I want to make it last. I would love to play in under 5 hours and cant believe more don't complain about 6 hour rounds or is Pebble the only place on earth that 6+ is accepted by the players

[Pasaplayer]

Great stuff.

[Dovegolfer]

Enjoyed this. Agree we could use some more in-depth one off videos, either around holes that used to be good that got worse through time and/or holes that played to a draw, like #8.

At the end you could also add in other elements such as routing and maintenance/agronomy (kikuyu vs. Poa) to settle any ties.

[OWGR Fan]

Geoff wan't swaying too much in the video. He was keeping his glutes activated!!!!!!

[Dusty Schmidt]

I love all of the banter, but to call #6 a push is unforgivable! Pebble #6 is one of the all time great holes. #6 at Riviera doesn't compare just because Thomas decided to plop a bunker in the middle of it. I do like #6 at Riviera, but Jesus it does not even remotely compare to #6 at Pebble.