Golf.com Gang Endorses Doing Something About Distance For Pros

The technophobic press is really warming to this idea of addressing distance gains at the pro level and I just enjoy copying and pasting this so much!

The SI/Golf.com gang this week responded to the USGA's Mike Davis calling the leaps horrible for golf courses. The chat included Michael Bamberger, John Wood (Kuchar caddie), Josh Sens, Jeff Ritter, Joe Passov and Alan Shipnuck.

Bamberger: I couldn't judge the hurt-the-economics-of-golf question. The modern ball has made Tour golf, for me, less interesting and more of a slog. At my level (92-shooter!) the longer ball with space-age equipment has made the game more enjoyable but at the expense of beauty. I'm in favor of a ball for them and a ball for us. I think a softer ball that curves more is a better test of golfing skill at the highest level.

Ritter: Totally agree. I've never hit the ball farther than I do today, and that's certainly a blast. But the pros are decimating classic courses. The ball isn't the lone culprit, but it's certainly a factor. I see no harm in a ball for the Tour pros, and one for the rest of us.

Wood: I'm 100 percent agree with Michael. There's no reason to change the ball for the everyday player. (By the way, if you're a 10 handicap or more, you'll shoot the same score with a decent range ball that you would with one from a $60 per-dozen price tag, speaking of economics.) I can only comment on the competitive aspect of the balls. Shrink the allowable head size of a driver and roll back the ball a bit for the best of the best, and I think the game at that level gets more interesting as well as preserves classic courses for major championships

Any day now we are going to have a reduced-driver head distance study released, I just know it. Because no matter how you feel about the impact of distance, wouldn't it just be fun to know how much today's larger driver heads allow players to gain distance. Or not?

Comments

[Colin MacGillivray]

The head size will be interesting.
I'm always amazed that my 24 degree hybrid with a head almost smaller than a matchbox works so well.

"Shrink the allowable head size of a driver (we shall see) and roll back the ball a bit for the best of the best, and ....(it) preserves classic courses for major championships"
This says it all.

[P Thomas]

So are we assuming the USGA/R&A are going to make a rule that separates professional golf and dictates a "tournament ball and clubs for that level?
Or says the US Open, Amateur, Senior Open will be playing a tournament spec ball for qualifiers and the tournament? maybe hope Augusta jumps in?

The governing bodies make the rules of golf. The PGA Tour plays by those rules, but is not bound to do so.
Let's say the USGA says top level tournament golf must play some rolled back equipment, but everybody else can keep their domesticated Molitors and Giant, lightweight drivers.

The TOUR, meets, and the players, who make GUARANTEED money from manufacturers decide, nope, we are going to play the same equipment as our fans. Yes, two or three majors may have puff balls, but everything else in professional golf has the same, and now the USGA is facing the possibility of the tour not using their rules. It has been discussed before.

I really hate the idea of bifurcation if you can't tell!! If this is done, the USGA should go all in and make it across the board IMO.

[Hardy Greaves]

So the Golf.com guys just reached this conclusion. Where were they in 2013 when the players were beating it around Merion with driving irons and fairway woods? It took Erin Hills for the awakening?

[MC]

Until Geoff or anyone else in the press wants to talk about the changes in agronomy and how they've affected distance, I'm just not going to take any of them seriously and will always think they have a biased grudge to hold. Geoff has already admitted as such given his connection to the architectural side of things. Look at all the longest drives on tour every year - courses with rock hard fairways that are shaved down to nothing. Firestone, Firestone, Firestone, Kapalua, Firestone, Firestone. Yet, yeah, its all the fault of the golf ball, we get it.

Here's a quote from Rex Hoggard talking about the USGAs own driving distance study. This quote is from an article in February of this year:

======================

"Essentially, the statistics suggest that distance gains for the top players remain relatively static, with average drives on five of the seven tours studied increasing about 1.2 percent since 2003, or about .2 yards per year.

In other words, stay calm and play on.

That handwringing that echoed around the water cooler earlier this year when Justin Thomas shot an easy 59 on Day 1 at the Sony Open, that the modern game was making some classic courses like Waialae, and even this week’s pitch at Riviera, an analog stop in a digital world were unfounded, alarmist even."

======================

So which is it? Does Mike Davis think its the end of the world or is it nothing to see here.

[Tom Morris]

Divide the equipment will divide the game - making the Pro Game even more of a circus while promoting the face of real greed of all those associated with that farce.

Its not a divide and Rule but a divide and watch the major parts moving even further from each other - confusing others who may just decide its not the game for them.

Is this the end of the beginning taking golf further away from sporty courses with good hazards that test the golfers - why would we even want to make the game more challenging for the top players, God Knows, and all because those in charge don't have the faintest idea what the game is all about.

[ol Harv]

"Essentially, the statistics suggest that distance gains for the top players remain relatively static, with average drives on five of the seven tours studied increasing about 1.2 percent since 2003, or about .2 yards per year."

O M G! Static! Take a look at the stats from mid to late 90's to 2003. Dennis Paulson led the PGA Tour in driving distance in 95' at 282. LED! 282 now is close to DFL in distance. Jim Dent was smoking it 266 on the senior circuit and Beth Daniel was one of the longest women with the unheard of 257 average. Look up the distance stats now. We're talking 30 to 50 yards difference. When it got to the point it's at now doesn't matter. It's here and needs to be corrected.

[d]

$60/dozen? The highest priced balls are Pro V1 -- and the are $48/dozen

[MJR]

Or everyone could just play forward on the tees, hit their long irons again, and still be under the same rules. But yes, whatever. bifurcation tomorrow, bifurcation forever...

[MattS]

I'm mostly out of playing for the next several years while my son grows up. Wife and I would combine for about 120 rounds a year before him. This year we are at 10, combined.

There is a very real chance that in 10 years if the ball is rolled back and I have time start playing again that I'm not going to be interested in playing a 5,400 yard course, vs the 6,200-6,400 tees that I pick now.

[TrickedUp]

It's not just the ball or the driver. All clubs should be addressed.

The irons are ridiculously long too with all the tricked up stuff and frying pan size.

I play old heavy blades and when I sit them side by side with some of the stuff my friends play with ... it's like comparing an old wooden tennis racquet to the modern oversized frames. Completely out of control. They simply don't even need to put a half way decent swing on it and it goes straight and far.

To this they should also do away with the cheating on the greens. Get rid of that mapped out greens book and the alignment aids.

[Jupiter]

We know @ Tom Morris... no one but you has the faintest idea what the game is all about. Maybe someday if we keep studying and playing we can somehow learn about this game that you and only you know about.

[BrianS]

@ Jupiter - don't forget, we can only play Golf if we fly to Scotland.

[Carl Peterson]

@MattS, if, for instance, your present day well-struck drive covers 65% of the yardage of a par-4 (e.g., 260 of 400yds) and you are able to cover that same percentage when you return to the game (but with different absolute numbers e.g. 200 yards of a 307yd par-4) will that somehow diminish your enjoyment of the game?

[N]

I don't think driver size is a good way to tackle the distance problem. My M2 three wood is nearly as long off the tee as my driver. I don't want to buy new clubs. But I always have to buy new balls. I still don't see how dialing back the distance of the ball will reduce ball sales any more than it would reduce the sale of golf gloves.

[Tom Morris]

@Jupiter & BrianS

It all depends upon what game you have decided to play - if its the Royal & Ancient Game of Golf - then just play it and stop cheating and playing on courses not fit for purpose. Its your choice.

If you don't come up to the standards, don't blame me, that's totally down to you for not bothering to learn the game and understand its history and traditions. Too many people believe that learning golf is about the swing, holding the club and that about it - but its way more involved - those golfers you see all around the world still playing the Game of Golf do so by being committed, by taking time to understand. they also have a high regard for golf course design as the game just can't be played upon any course , again that's down to understand GCA, something that takes time to learn.

Now to mock me for lazy stupid attitudes is just exposing your own ignorance - please do yourselves a favour and start or at least try to understand the game you seem to be trying to play, it may, just may make your game way more enjoyable, even on a bad day.

The are many crap course all over the world, but there are also many good and great golf courses, designed and maintained for the game of golf, - not just in Scotland and to my shame I don't know all about the Royal & Ancient Game of Golf, perhaps a little more that the two of you combined.

[digsouth]

@ Tom M. Fight the good fight, for the times they are a changing...

@ d-- ball price- $60 retail list I believe- too lazy to look up. $48 is 20% off.

@ Jupiter. WOT...Tom is never gonna give it up, and I'm ok with that- I will skim his posts till there is something new.

@tricked up- ''They simply don't even need to put a half way decent swing on it and it goes straight and far.''

Yes, but your clubs can work the ball: the first time I hit a Callaway iron, a 5 went 183, but STRAIGHT-into the sxxt. With hardballs and oversize ''game improvement'' irons, the hope of ever working the ball is nada. Also, yor 5 is their 7: juiced lieing (as in a lie) lofts, and 1/2 to 1 inch longer shafts make the ''increased distance'' total BS, not to mention needing a kazillion wedges to fill in between the 9 and putter, since the W of today is the 8 of 1985. It is all effing MARKETING, not engineering.

@Carl P. in answer to your question to MattS-- yes it would decrease the enjoyment, for me.

@All- NFL, NCAA, UAIL~~MLB, NCAA, Little League, etc, and on and on. Do you ''no bifercation- we want to compare our ''skills'' to the pros- never realize that NO ONE IS KEEPING YOU FROM PLAYING THE TIPS AND USING A ''PRO RULEBOOK'', SHOULD BIFERCATION BECOME A REALITY. hint-it already has- think about it.~~dig~~

[Matts]

Carl Peterson: That was a thought provoking question.

Somewhat yes, but I'm mostly thinking about courses that I've played in the past. My favorite local club (that I had to switch away from since son) starts with a longish par 4. If I was hitting it well that day I could reach the top of a slope in the fairway and it would roll down to give me a 150 yard shot in. If I didn't reach the top of the hill it was close to 190. So either they will have to build new tees forward to allow me a similar experience, or that's always going to go away and I'll always have at best the 190, but probably a 210+, shot in. That would not be as enjoyable. I can also say that it would be very unlikely that this club would be able to come up with money to move the tees up.

If I have never played a course before it might not matter as much to me, but I'm not really the kind of golfer that searches out new courses. I have maybe a dozen in various places, including winter travel, that I play more than 85% of the time.

Also in your example the approach shots are 140 vs 107 yards. While the irons would also go shorter the gaps between the irons probably won't close that much so a bunch of approach shots of the shorter distance would probably detract from the fun as well.

Thanks for the question. I hope this answer helps.

[P Thomas]

from another site:


"Gary Woodland must have been following this thread and decided to try his current driver vs a persimmon on Trackman:

His current driver flew 48 yards further, swing speed was 13 MPH faster, and ball speed was 22 MPH faster. He flew it 268 with the persimmon (but modern golf ball)."


The length and weight are huge factors. More forgiving size as well. Most "modern balls" do not work well with persimmon accounts for a little.

thought it interesting....

[Loose Impediments]

Driver heads' volume shrink...more new club sales for the new stuff pros have to put in the bags. So today's 3-wood becomes tomorrow's driver. Maybe Phil is ahead of the curve on this one.

Cha-Ching.

Next will be wood woods coming back under marketing campaigns touting their organic/sustainable materials.

[Carl Peterson]

@MattS, thanks for the reply. In my own experience, I usually find myself playing from the 'second longest' set of tees with one or two sets of shorter tees available. My personal view is that I wouldn't care if changes to equipment or my own aging process force me to move to a shorter course.

[Thomas Mihok]

"There is a very real chance that in 10 years if the ball is rolled back and I have time start playing again that I'm not going to be interested in playing a 5,400 yard course, vs the 6,200-6,400 tees that I pick now."

Spoken like a true millennial.

"@Carl P. in answer to your question to MattS-- yes it would decrease the enjoyment, for me."

Spoken like someone who didn't read the question.

[Matts]

Carl Peterson: I'm usually at that set of tees as well, but most places I play only have one set of tees forward. Though my wife is actually close to me in off the tee distance (fun in a scramble) our current irons/hybrids have a significant gap in distance. Since she currently plays 1-2 sets of tees in front of me now where will she be playing from? It's pretty important that she continue to enjoy golfing as that's our current plan during retirement.

Thomas Mihok: I didn't realize 47 is a millennial, thanks :) I look forward to your thoughts on my starting par 4 example.

[Thomas Mihok]

In other words: "I want the golf course to be what I want it to be. I want to hit a shot from 150 on #1 because that makes me happy and I deserve to be happy, the hell with what the architect wanted."

If that's the case make your own tee in the fairway and tee off from there. Why don't courses just start building 30 tees a hole to fit all the players that hit it different distances. GOLF CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE!!!!

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Carl, shrink the yardages, and the greens are now a disproportionate size.

Your 400-yard hole that shrinks to 307, with approach shots going from 140 yards to 107 yards, will play very, very differently if the same dimensions are otherwise kept. And it's not just a matter of shrinking the green the same percentage, either.

[Ted B. (Charging Rhino)]

If The-Powers-That-Be bifurcate the ball will the current standard ball that we mid-high handicap players use be rusticated by the ball manufacturers? Marketing -- and R&D -- is driven by the lure of the professional game, even though the average recreational golfer is buying 99% of the balls on the market.. "Play what the Pros use..."is a powerful marketing draw, and the dollars follow accordingly.

Will the end-result be an undesirable and unplayable ball for the mid-high handicapper?

[Swing Away]

I'm with Erik and P Thmas, I want longer everything. In a few years, we'll be able to see regular 400y+ drives and that is awesome.