Trevino: "Why isn't the USGA saying the courses can't be more than 7,000 yards long?"

Kathy Bissell talks to a former winner at Oak Hill and Lee Trevino is in fine spirits predicting a winner, analyzing Phil Mickelson's backswing with Butch Harmon, and mostly, taking on the USGA.

"The problem is our designers are making golf clubs for professionals, and I don't think that they are making golf courses, they are not developing golf courses for people," he insisted. "They have got this campaign going, 'While We're Young.' What the hell does that mean? If the course is 8,000 yards long, has 400 bunkers on it, the greens are 8,000 square feet, elephants buried in them, while we're young? Are you kidding me?"

He wonders why the USGA doesn't regulate the length of golf courses if they want to do something to improve the pace of play.

"Why isn't the USGA saying the courses can't be more than 7,000 yards long?" he wondered. "They govern everything else."

He goes on to note that even with modern equipment the average handicap has remained the same.

Comments

[DaveAndrews]

Nothing against Lee Trevino, but I find it interesting that a lot of these old pros who made millions off the game are now interested in making courses friendlier for the average player. I don't recall any of them speaking up about pace of play, courses that were too long, or greens that were too challenging when they were beating the competition in their prime. Some of them have even been involved in designing some of those tough courses they complain about now.

[johnnnycz]

That horse left the barn about 25-30yrs ago. But it is a good idea if the dreaded (and much needed) B-word ever gets around to becoming a reality.

[GreenwichGolfer]

He does nail it though on the USGA's campaign. That was awkward and off at best.

[tlavin]

Grab clicker; press repeat.

[Uncle Fester]

The USGA needs to understand that it needs to apply every tool possible to speed up play. Everything should be on the table.

[panco]

The longer the course from a particular tee should be reflected in the cost of the round.

[Lexicographer]

Over-bunkered I get, but so what if a course is 7,500. Multiple sets of tees right? I'm not playing from back there and I know no hack who does. Tee it forward? Have we abandoned that already?

[digsouth]

Sounds like Lee is throwing darts at Jack, and he is pretty correct in everything he says.

And I own a ''deluxe'' version of Caddyshack, can quote most of the movie, and I didn't have a clue WTF the ''while we're young'' was supposed to mean, though I do like he bug eyed look Paula Creamer gives in her rendition.

I say the pros should be threatened with a shot clock, if they don't get it together in the next 2 years. Every 2 bad times costs you a stroke. Why doesn't TV make something happen? They are the ones who start ''New Modern Theory Project'' late every week.

[vwgolfer]

yea hump greens and many bunkers I guess Lee aint working for Jack Nicklaus Design anytime soon. Like I said before "while were young" is a ridiculous ad campaign and kudos for Lee for pointing this out. 7000 yds courses? Hey Lee tee it forward.

[Viz]

LOVE what Lee is saying for once and he has a good point. Courses don't need to be 7500 yards to offset the length of the ball and clubs. Designers these days think they need to build these MONSTER courses that have to be so long and difficult with long walks from green to tee etc. Modern day era architects IMO opinion are not nearly as creative as the old school era was.

[The Pro from Dover]

@ Digs Re: Lee Buck, yep, agree. Something to a wise OLD man isn't there? Hey, TV doesn't care how long it takes the guys to prod around the golf course -- they get to sell more commercials.. Finchem doesn't care either, same reason. Rodney was waiting on Judge Smails to hit when he blurted "while we're young".....meaning he was holding up play.

[Lip Out]

It used to be that par 3s spread the courses out...normal size courses, that is. But nowadays, with everybody and their brother hitting par 5s in two, the par 5s back everything up. Every par 5 you've got a group around the green locating their errant 2nd shots, a group in the fairway waiting to attempt a 275+ second shot they have almost no chance of pulling off and at least two groups waiting on the tee and remarking that the players ahead are too slow.

[PatrickG]

When a courses only defense is rough and length (a la Firestone, most PGA Tour courses) - get ready for BORING golf. The Masters is the best tournament every year and produces the best quality of golf. Yes, it's long, but there are wide fairways, very little rough and lots of risk/reward holes. That's what makes golf interesting and fun to watch.

Oak Hill is going to be super boring to watch and some mid tier player is going to win. Tiger will contend, and as much as I want Phil to win/contend he probably won't. There are not enough opportunities for a superior player to separate himself at that course.

[PABoy]

Nobody should play any par 72 couse more than 20x the length they hit their 5 iron and reduce by a gap wedge for every stroke para is less than 72. So what is that for a tour player?

[meefer]

Thinking of those with whom I play a regular round: a 2 cap, a 3, couple of 5's, a couple of 8's (I'm in this group), a couple of 10's and then the stragglers ;-) A quick search leads me to state that 25% of golfers are a 10 or under. Driving distances for my group average from a low of 240 (that would be me) through to 285 (the 2 and 3 cap...they can bust it out there). 7000 yds gives me all I can handle. Curiously, or not, it also is a length that challenges the 2/3 caps quite effectively. By no means definitive evidence, my experience leads me to agree with Lee that one doesn't need a 7,500+ yd course to make things demanding. If the goal is to increase enjoyment and pace of play, why not scale back? There are plenty of 'Championship' quality courses out there already, which for the good/average/below average player are not playable from the tips, and they cost a fortune to play and maintain. Dial back distance, place the emphasis on quality shot opportunities, space the design appropriately for pace of play, reduce development and maintenance costs and let the players enjoy a wonderful day on the course.

[RES]

PABOY,

The answer to your question, based on your recommendation of limiting par 72 course length to 20x the length of a five iron, is that the average PGA Tour course should be 4000 yards long.

[Steve]

Here is a simple solution....don't put tee markers out at a yardage over 7000 yards unless a course is hosting an event where the players can actually handle them. For daily play, just leave the "back" tees at say 6800 as the max. Hard to play a set of tees that aren't there.

[c]

Generally love Lee and his comments but the length of the golf course has nothing to do with slow play. Slow play is the fault of the players and a given club's management, no one else's. People just need to get moving. Clubs (private and public) should post boldly at the first tee something to the effect that "The club reserves the right to require a group to move up a hole, etc if it (the group) is deemed to be out of position and/or holding up play."

e.g. Yesterday two pals & I were stuck behind a foursome of more elderly gents. They were playing the tees they should be playing. We waited on EVERY shot beginning with the second hole. These guys played a tough golf course in about 4 hours and 25 minutes. Slow but not all that dreadful considering there was a cart path only rule in effect that day.

It just never seemed to occur to them that it was wide open ahead of them and behind us.

It's about common sense and good manners, two commodities unfortunately lacking in (seemingly) most of the golfers out there today.